Published by As mentioned in Part One, I am looking at the Bible in the way any ordinary lay person would do.
I also mentioned that the first part of the Bible, commonly called the Old Testament, is nothing but the Tanakh or Written Torah [as opposed to the oral Torah], the holy book of
I will address each of the things in this article, one at a time my friend, please note I am not attacking you, just here to inform.
First you say
“I also mentioned that the first part of the Bible, commonly called the Old Testament, is nothing but the Tanakh or Written Torah [as opposed to the oral Torah], the holy book of the Jews.” The Old Testament being the Jewish Torah is well known, it was still Inspired by God.
Second you say
” Incredibly, on the fourth day, God creates “lights in heaven, to separate the day from the night, and for measuring days, years and seasons.” If this were true, it would mean that the earth is older than the sun and stars! Also, this verse implies that the earth is the center of the universe and the sun, moon and stars were created for earth! In reality, the earth is a very small part of the universe.”
How is it “Incredible”? God is Almighty by definition, the Lights created on Day 4 were the Light Bearers, the ORIGINAL light (from the 1st Day) was Light itself, the very element called light.
Remember Also, God Is light, and being God he can give light without the Sun. As a matter of fact according to scripture the New Jerusalem will have no need of the Sun because God will light it Himself.
With that said,
The current reason for the Sun and Moon is clearly Given in scripture,it is to give light yes, but also to mark the passage of time/seasons
The earth being Older than the Sun and Stars is not Impossible, and actually makes sense since God made it that way. Nowhere does the verse say that “earth is the center of the universe” and reading such speculation into scripture is what is causing you to err.
You say “In reality, the earth is a very small part of the universe.” but that does not discount the fact that the Sun and stars were made for the earth, God after all put life where? The Earth.
Further
The Firmament=the Heavens as a whole.
The Sun and Moon are in Heavens, at the same time the sky/atmosphere is also part of the heavens hence why we say a bird is flying through the heavens.
Dear friend, the scriptures are not in error, your understanding of them just needs to be refined.
As for the sun and moon, the moon being smaller and not having light of it’s own but reflecting the Sun’s light may well be the reason the moon is called “the lesser light”
just something to think on
To understand the Word of God as it was originally written, I suggest going back and studying the original languages.
Dear Truthlover, Love the name by the way, you say
“Was that a 24-hour day or an unknown period of time? The use of the traditional Jewish reckoning of a day, an evening and a morning, would imply it was a 24-hour day. Again, I have no issues with this. I think it is plausible that God could create a universe in what is one of our 24-hour days.”
God’s Word makes it clear when, and how, and in what order He made everything. We may not know everything since we are finite, God (as was mentioned) is Almighty by definition, God also cannot Lie, if He says something happened a certain way, It happened as He said.
We may not understand it all, but that is why He is the Creator and we are the Creature. God Is Infallible, Man is Fallible, the Scripture is God inspired, our interpretation may tend to be off if we lean on our own understanding. (God explicitly says “lean not on your own understanding” for a reason, because Man is fallible) Just food for thought.
Dear Robert
Thank you for your comments, which I would like to reply to:
Regarding the Old Testament being the Jewish Tanakh…is there any other religion that uses the holy book of another religion as part of its own holy book?
Regarding the second point, it is incredible that the sun and other heavenly bodies were supposedly created on the fourth day. Do you really believe that the earth is older than the other bodies? Far from the sun being placed in the heavens to rule over the day, day and night is caused by the earth\’s revolution on its axis. The whole story presupposes the earth was flat, which we know it is not. Then again, there was already light in existence from the first day, so where is the need for some more lights?
For your information, the sun and moon are more than mere light givers. But I will come to that on another day.
It is not \’impossible\’ but definitely improbable that the earth is older than the other bodies in space. If anything, it is younger, as geologists would tell you.
The whole slant of the account is to show how and why man has come into existence and all the other issues involved. Even today, we humans think we are the only intelligent creatures in the universe!
Regard the firmament, it clearly states, \”Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.\” What you have here is two layers of water with the firmament in the middle, sort of like a sandwich. Where is the second layer of water now? The sun and other bodies were placed in this firmament, so they should be between the two layers of water! That would make that outer layer of water, encompassing the firmament, somewhere out there beyond space!
Surely the Creator would know the facts better than us, and should have put them correctly.
Dear Truthseeker, you state ” If anything, it is younger, as geologists would tell you.” I now see the issue you are having, you are relying on man’s wisdom rather than God’s. As for the firmament, it is the Heavens. The scripture clearly states that. You interpreted the firmament as merely the atmosphere, but when God said Heavens He meant what He said, the atmosphere is included, but only a PART of the heavens. You say ” Surely the Creator would know the facts better than us, and should have put them correctly.”
He states them fine, the issue is you trusting Him, Sincerely Robert. P.S. As for your belief that the Bible anywhere suggests a flat earth, you are again in error. Go back to the original languages as Jon suggested. The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old, that is why the Jewish Torah is included in the Bible.
Dear Truthseeker,
You State “Far from the sun being placed in the heavens to rule over the day, day and night is caused by the earth\’s revolution on its axis. The whole story presupposes the earth was flat, which we know it is not.”
The Sun was placed in the heavens to rule the day, the fact that the earth rotates on it’s axis does not change that. to Rule means “govern”, in the case of the Sun, it gives light to the day with the moon “governing” the night.
The “four corners” of the earth refer not to a flat earth, but to the Cardinal Directions. I will gladly explain more to you, in fact I would love the opportunity to do a Bible Study session with you via this message board if you like.
Dear TS. you said “That would make that outer layer of water, encompassing the firmament, somewhere out there beyond space!”
to understand this you may want to read the Whole of scripture.
It makes reference to a Crystal Sea. Scripture, we are often told, should be allowed to interpret scripture, therefore it stands to reason that the outer layer of water may well be the Crystal sea which is mentioned in Rev 4:6 since it is above the firmament….in God’s abode.
Scripture says, And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
I agree w/John and Before you suggest that the crystal sea could not be what is being referred to as “the water above the firmament” because it is called a “sea of glass” let me remind you that crystal clear calm water would look glassy. It is therefore possible that John, In revelation was using “the language of appearance” as we often do today. This is circumstantially suggested given that he said “a sea of glass, like unto crystal”.
correction I meant to put to truthlover
Truthlover said “Then again, there was already light in existence from the first day, so where is the need for some more lights?”
This issue was already mentioned, scripture states on the fourth day, God created “lights in heaven, to separate the day from the night, and for measuring days, years and seasons.”
the key here is the last part of the verse.
You answered your own question truthlover, maybe the reason you have issues w/scripture is you keep jumping the gun as they say rather than studying carefully. Scripture tells us to
“Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH.” 2 Timothy 2:15.
John the Revelator repeatedly uses the language of appearance throughout revelation, it makes sense that the description of the Crystal Sea is a continuation of this. Genesis 1:6-8 says
“God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.”
The Waters above the Firmament may indeed refer to Revelation’s Heavenly Crystal Sea, while the waters below the Firmament would refer to earthly Seas.
Dear Truthlover The Scriptures clearly indicate a spherical earth, Jesus made this clear himself when describing His Return. He stated “Luke 17:31-34
In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Remember Lot’s wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.”
The indication being daylight on one side, with night on the Other.
You say you doubt the Bible is God’s Word and yet Jesus said in John 5:46 “For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=LUKE%2017
I don’t get your first point. Do you actually know what the Torah was?
I mean I am not Jewish and I know what it is.
Plus Genesis and Exodus for example were written in 1513 BCE, before there was a a Jewish Nation.
Leviticus, Numbers, adn Deuteronomy were written to document the beginning of the Nation of Isreal.
Look if you don’t regard the Bible as inspired of God, I don’t care, but you’re history is flawed. Get a clue. Read the writings of Josephus or something.
Hi Andy N
I know what the Torah is. It is to Jews what the Bible is to Christians…the written “word of God”
“Plus Genesis and Exodus for example were written in 1513 BCE, before there was a Jewish Nation.” So what? These books are there in the Bible, right? These books are attributed to Moses, the founding father of the “nation” of Israel [in contrast, Jacob is the ancestor of the "people" of Israel]. If Moses was really inspired, he should have gotten his facts right!
“Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy were written to document the beginning of the Nation of Israel.” Again, so what? These are also supposedly “inspired” books of the Bible.
I don’t see how my “history is flawed.” I am going down the book of Genesis as it is recorded. The writings of Josephus contain his version of history. It is no more inspired than what I’m writing! There’s a difference though: what you’re reading is the original that I’m writing where as what you’ve read purportedly by Josephus is the translated version of his Latin works.
If you stick with me, I will show you how the whole account of Genesis is flawed in that it does not match up with facts you and I know today — facts that have not changed over the centuries.