Published by The debate on whether or not a woman is suppose to be pastoring will not end because I have written this article. This is another subject that I am long winded on, and can write a 200 page book with no problem. That being said, I am going to stick to a few core scriptures and arguments to get a view of the overall position of pastor, and the person who is suppose to occupy the office.
What is the requirement for this office?
Applying for any secular position requires that you meet certain requirements and standards. I recall seeing an ad in the paper for a sales position, and one of the requirements was to be clean shaving and no long hair. I had a friend of mines with a long pony tail and he said, ” I ain’t cutting my hair for anyone.” The bible also has very strict requirements for the office of a bishop. Man has elevated this office to a supervisor of pastors within a district, however when the bible said bishop, it meant the Sheppard of the flock. To truly examine this, we must go to 1 Timothy 3 NKJV, and observe what the job description is. The very first requirement is 1 Tim 3:1, If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. Take notice the word man is used in the description, followed by he. This should leave no doubt in the mind of the believer of what gender is mandated by scripture to hold this office. The NIV uses a bad synonym for a man, and has re-interpreted it as anyone. This has added fuel to the debate. The NIV is a great layman’s term bible, but should not be used to x out the King James translations. This version was written so that a sixth grader could understand it. However the decision of the church overseer is not left up to sixth grade theology, and opinions of the un-churched. The next verse affirms the statement in verse one. 1 Timothy 3:2 states, the husband of one wife. It is clear that this position is reserved for a husband. As hard as it may be for the feminist agenda to observe, the bible is not an equal opportunity employer, and if one has a problem with the scripture, they should get on their knees and take it up with the author. There are several more references to he in the rest of 1 Timothy 3, but we need to examine other areas of this topic.
Take this church for example
The church of Thyatira mentioned in the book of Revelations 2:18, is a church that Christ has a few things against. What is the Lord’s charge against this assembly of believers. I was left with the impression after reading this chapter so many times, that he is not happy with the elders of the church who are men. Notice how He addresses them in Revelations 2:20. Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach. There will be a lot of people who will read this article and say, ” God never said a woman cant teach.” However, I have provided the scripture where the Lord has a problem with it. Jezebel is the worst name you can call a woman in the bible, as Judas is the worst for a man. The state of the church is that the men have become so weak or absent, that the women have began to step up and fill the positions. I have personally witnessed women out of control involved in the business of running the church, or running the Pastor. It may be controversial to ask where are their husbands, but it would not be out of line to say they are out of order to say the least. The worst thing about the men in Thyatira, is they allowed the woman to be out of order. It is far past the time for men to step up and full fill their priestly duties in the modern church.
What was the Apostle Paul’s position
Eye opening is the statement Paul made in 1 Timothy 2:12 to say the least. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. The reason for this is women are weaker in spiritual matters, which is revealed in the verses that follow. I have found in my personal circle of ministers, the men in training have an issue with sitting under the tutorship of a female pastor, until they have learned enough to become an overseer of a church themselves. Some would argue that it’s the male ea-go and testosterone getting in the way of their decision of serving under a woman. I personally would not serve under a woman because I feel if a woman cant teach a boy to be a man, which is in the natural confines of nature, then it would be reasonable to conclude that learning to be a pastor from some one who was not given the blessing in the bible to take the office, is not in the order of how God wants His church to operate. Many women will make the case that God has used women in the bible, and there is no doubt about that. Lydia was the Apostle Paul’s first convert in Thyatira, and theologians believe that she gave her testimony, and as a result of it the church of Thyatira was planted. In the modern church, women were given the solemn duties in the early pentecostal churches for planting churches, although they did not oversee them. Their duties fell in line with many of the duties you will recall in the new testament. The women who Paul encountered evangelized, prophesied and did missionary work. The women who followed Christ were recorded with him on his short journeys, as He and his disciples evangelized. It is not certain if they did any work, but it is for sure they were present. Many women take the position that God can use anyone, anyplace he chooses, and they are correct. He is God the Almighty, but He is not a respecter of men, but He respects His word. I recall a Pastor and His wife visiting my church, and when the Pastor came to sit in the pulpit, his wife followed him. This being a Pentecostal church, it was a no no. I can only imagine what rules are being violated by the women in his congregation.
Conclusion
This article was not an attack on the rights of women in society. There is a difference between the world and the church, and we must be careful to keep the two separate. That being said, we recognize the contributions that women have made to ministry, like Annie Semple Mc Phereson. There is no reason to shut women out of the ministry, but the office of the Bishop is reserved for men. This is what the scriptures say, and we must be obedient. There were no women on the counsel of Jerusalem, and there are no women in the Vatican. Liberalism is not a civic of the church, and should not be in the churches. God is not a democracy, He has not asked for your opinion. He dictates the terms and they are not negotiable. Christian’s are really going to have to pay closer attention to the seven churches of Revelations, because we are in a time, when what the Lord was counseling those churches on, is happening all over again. Let me encourage the women who read this article to continue to work hard for the Lord and thier churches. This may be controversial, but it needs to be examined by the assembly of believers.
Http://blog.takingt2thestreetsministries.com
You don’t know enough of the scripture to write a 200 page book and if you were a theologian you wouldn’t be blogging such obvious false teaching. You are nothing but a carnally minded man who wants to take a single scripture out of context and stretch it to suit your narrow minded theology. You need to get a degree in biblical studies if you want to teach the word in spirit and truth instead getting up on your soap box to misguide Christians. The first thing you need to do is study the women Jesus put instantly into ministry and used to save his elect even as late as in 1073 by a woman prime minister of Israel, and secondly you need study the end times, in Daniel and how God will release his Spirit upon the sons, AND DAUGHTERS to prophesy and speak in HIS NAME
@ Mary
There is a major difference between prophesying and holding the office of bishop.
And for the record I do hold a degree in biblical studies. Any other comments are welcome, but give your theological point of view, insults only show that you are not ministry material. The women you are speaking of in ministry of Jesus DID NOT HOLD THE OFFICE OF BISHOP. That may be because the church was not born until acts 2:9, and was not concrete until acts 2:47.
I’ll just make a few comments here. First, I personally don’t believe women have a ‘right’ to leadership positions in the church and would oppose any agenda to have women included on a cultural or societal basis, ie feministic reasoning and the like. However, as you stated, this is a controversial topic which has more than two sides to it. There are many churches which support women in leadership roles (and have since their founding a century ago) based on strong Biblical reasoning, one being the Assemblies of God. I’ll simply include a link to their excellent position paper on the subject for those who would like to see another view. http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_downloads/pp_4191_women_ministry.pdf
women have the right to lead, anna was a prophet
Great article. This does need to be understood and you’re doing your best with the knowledge from the good book. Well done!
Hello Clafleur, I say to your future readers, we need to lay all human OPINIONS aside.
God’s Word is what matters.
Take care All
HI Clafleur,
I believe your article follows the Bible well. You back up your points with scripture and that is most important. The Bible is the inspired word of God and it is NOT wrong. Many people in today’s world forget about Sodom and Gomorrah. People did as they pleased then and strayed from the Word of God and God reigned down fire on them and destroyed them. It states very clear in the Bible women should not hold offices as pastors, priests, etc. Yes there are many women prophets, teachers, missionaries and the such, but that does not mean they are church leaders. God has a reason for making this particular rule. Women do have a huge responsibility when it comes to bearing children, taking care of family and making a home for them. Good Lord, us women can’t do everything!!! LOL And God knows that. Good job on the article. Good research and scripture to back it up. I look forward to reading more of your work.
God bless!
http://bible.cc/galatians/3-28.htm
there is neither Greek nor Jew, male nor female but all are called according to his purpose.
Many are called but few are chosen
The gifts and calling of God is without repentance
Whosoever will.
Sir.
Honored to comment on this topic. I belief that we humans created by god have departed from what is right according to the writen word of God. I believe that man finds some of the laws that are writen by our lord to not jive with modern and liberal times. It is clear and is gods word that a woman keep silent and seek her husband in regards to church afairs. It is farther stated in the writen wrd that the man is the priest of his houshold and never is it stated that a woman should hold this office it is quite the contrary accordingly to our farthers writen word. What I have seen is a attack on christians who stand with the writen word that they try to twist into a shovenist type of move against woman. This is the farthest from the truth and is really the way the devil trys to deceive us. My position Sir is stand firm and do what is writen by god not plagerized by men who want roles of gender bending and same sex mariage legalized. Stand firm Sir because you have stated the truth of the almighty god. You Sir are a mighty man of God and you will indure as I myself have ran against this force in my life.
I feel no one else has a right to your own relationship with the lord. Its a personal thing, I don’t need a pastor.
Clefluer,
I beg to differ with you on this. Strange enough this is an issue I have been thinking about lately. It is dangerous for us to pick scripture and quote it out of context.
First and foremost Paul was writing at a time when women had just been released to be taught the word. You must understand that before Christ women were not allowed to worship with men. It is said that the Jews used to pray “Lord I thank you that I am not a Gentile, a slave or a woman”. So Paul was giving the women the priviledge to learn the gospel with men which was unheard of before Christ. Paul needed to set rules to ensure that false doctrines out of ignorance was not introduced in the church through unlearned women.
Paul was in reality telling Timothy not to put anyone (in this case it was the woman) in position of leadership who was not mature in the faith. Just like Adam was first created, and given instructions by God on how to live in the kingdom of God, the men in the Ephesus (where Timothy was ministering) were the first to learn the word. Like Adam they were failing their women by not teaching kingdom principles instead they were letting them be misled by false doctrines. This was in context of the Ephesus church but the principle is applicabe anyone else. The issue is not the woman but the maturity of the teacher.
You mention Revelation 2:20 in connection to Jezebel and in the process insults all women by suggesting that because Jezebel was a woman that is why God was angry. If you study your scripture correctly, you will note why John would use Jezebel to describe what was happening in this particular church. And for your information Jude is shortened form of Judas, it was a common Jewish name.
Ahab married Jezebel who came from a culture that worshiped baal and in trying to please her, Ahab build a temple and an altar for baal and in the process promoted idol worship in Israel. We are not sure whther the woman mentioned in Revelation 2:20 was actually called Jezebel but she was similar to Ahab’s wife in that she was promoting sexual immorality and in the process deceiving others in the church to go astray. This had nothing to do with her gender but with the fact that she was permited to teach regardless of her wickedness and she would not repent of her wickedness.
Please also refer to Genesis1:27 ” God created man in His own image; in the image of God created him; male and female He created them”. Note that man represent male and female. After the fall is where the difference emerges because of the curse. But if we are in the Kingdom of God, we are no longer under the curse because Christ became a curse that we may no longer live under the curse. He came to set the captives free of which the woman was the greatest.
Further in Galatians 3 : 25-28 Paul writes ” But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptised into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male or female for you are all one in Christ”. The operative word here is “sons” Christ has broken the barrier that existed through sin. Be careful you do not impose distinctions that Christ has removed.
Paul asks a woman whose husband is not a believer not to divorce him if he is willing to stay, “for the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife” 1 Corinthians 7: 13, 14. So in this case who is the spiritual covering or spiritual leader tin the home?
With all due respect to you, I discern a lot of religiosity and legalism in your arguements. The Kingdom of God is not a religion full of rituals, rules and regulations. It is the reign of God on earth and we need to become we don not become like Pharasies whom Jesus said that they were not entering the kingom but were also barring others from entering with their legalism.
It is the Holy Spirit who distributes the gifts and ministries, can we control how He does it? We are all being transformed into the image of Christ “till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowldege of the son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” Ephesians 4:13. We are called to ” put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness” Ephesians 4: 24. Again the word “man” is used and unless you are suggesting women are not invited to this call then I don’t see what the issue is.
I agree with your thesis, but have some problems with your debate. I think you may have left yourself wide open to criticism on this one – sadly, because you are quite right. I believe also that the bible expressly teaches that an overseer is a man’s position.
I am leader of the music ministry in my church, and have struggled with this as it is a leadership position. In this small church, I stepped up because the male leader moved away, and nobody else was available to take the position. I stayed there as an interim until such a man could be found. That was 11 years ago. So much has happened that has made me realize I am effective, blessed, and a blessing in this ministry. There is still not a man in the building that can carry a tune, much less lead others to sing. I am convinced, and so is everybody else, that I have been placed in that position.
God can use anybody to fulfill His desire, and if no man is present then He will often place a woman there. However, whatever man was called for the position and did not obey will have consequences to suffer, I think.
The pastor position is a very special calling biblically reserved for men. Moreover, I think anyone who honestly looks at both scripture, the duties of a pastor, and the general make-up of men and women, will agree that a woman is ill-suited to pastor as a general rule.
clafleur,
though I faiths may differ, I will agree that if the material you are teaching from is stating that a woman does not condone the women of the church being the ones to teach the Word then they should not be teaching it. My faith happens to be one that is more of a female led faith so there are not as many men as women leading it. If anyone else still follows my faith. We may have our differences on things, but this is not one of them.
I’m a Catholic but if my fellow Christians would argue about what’s written on the Bible I would rather sit cross-legged and wait for the truth to unfold. I very well knew that Jesus and Buddha were very good friends but of course each is entitled to his/her own opinion. If I should die by my faith, it would be more uplifting to shut my senses and embody what’s within each of us. In our state of being we are people looking for a pair of spectacles we have misplaced which is already held in place. Now who would win in such argument?
I would rather place my belief in something that I know for myself is real. I believe in GOD but I do not believe the Bible. It contradicts itself too much. The Quran and the New Testament contradicts itself. I was told “Believe NOTHING you hear and VERY LITTLE of what you see”.
Nice article though Clafleur
At a time when so few are callen, do you really feel pompous enough to turn away those who are willing to serve. Get your head out of the past and be willing to embrace those who are willing to sacrifice of themselves to serve others and the Lord God. Peace.
First off, let me say I am not a religious person. I do not believe in God or any other “higher power”. But, I do believe that a woman has the right to be a pastor, preacher, priest or whatever else she chooses to be. There is no evidence that having a penis makes anyone better than anyone else. This is pure nonsense!
I agree with this article. I can not see how anyone who believes that the Bible is the inspired Word of God can disagree. Part of the trouble could be as mentioned above the translation that one is reading from. There are many good translations available today but they are for different levels of use, as implied by the author. For devotional reading, the NLT is very good, and the NIV, though I am not very fond of it, is very popular and also useful. However, if one desires to truly STUDY Scripture, they need a word-for-word translation (ie, KJV, NKJV, NASB, ESV, ASB). The NLT and NIV are thought-for-thought translations and are not suited for real study. Looking at the way word-for-word translations render 1 Tim. 3:1-2 (http://tinyurl.com/yhr4m63) will clearly show that the intent is for a male to be in this position. And I agree that while ‘man’ has changed the meaning of “bishop”, as rendered in these passages it pertains to the office of what we call pastor today. (And I believe “elder” refers to a “preacher” in general, that is not currently holding the office of pastor but is qualified to do so.)
There are many places for women in ministry. I feel the Scripture is clear that women can teach up to adult, but not, adult classes (unless they classes are women only, such as a ladies group). I think they can hold other offices, which will vary from church to church. I see nothing wrong with them holding clerk positions or music directors and I am sure there are others that aren’t coming to mind at this moment.
While times and people change, things become “politically correct” and socially acceptable, God and His Word are unchangeable. He conveyed to us what He meant and that is that. While context is important and often times things are taken out of context to fit an agenda or idea, there is no contextual problem in this article, there is no false teaching. It is straight forward and it is Biblically correct.
Good job and well written, my Brother.
I would like to dispute that women cannot lead men for the mere fact as a person who has read the bible more than once there existed a woman named Deborah who lead the Israelites into war and won,she lead an army into war ,men who would not fight unless they had her to lead them therefore woman can lead men. There are many misconceptions of the bible,people believe only what they want to believe,see only what they want, it does not necessarily mean that is true,for example God never said it was okay to eat pork,nor did Jesus,yet Christians do?? What about fasting,that is changed from year to year,it is a pick and choose. So if we get back to the main subject I believe that any person on this earth can lead as long as God is with them and they are being lead by the holy spirit. As a human race we are supposed to learn from our mistakes learn by example although many times we are blinded by our own ignorance,throughout the ages many women,religious have been more spiritual then many men. Note the saints,they are not all men for a reason, so it is false to say women are not as spiritual as men when God made us all. So yes I believe if the chosen woman has proven herself before God then he will set it into peoples hearts to choose her, no man can do that only God.
What you said about ‘there are no women in the Vatican’ may be true, but then, there used to be no women presidents, now, there are. The bible was interpreted by men, therefore, its teachings prioritized men. If we are going to take the bible so literally, most of its doctrines will leave women out of place in this world. Then why did God create women in the first place? Women back then were not allowed to voice out in society and weren’t given rights for education. Besides, in modern days, when a certain article writes about man and he, sometimes the writers meant everyone (men and women).
This comment is not an attack on your article. You can believe whatever you believe in. It’s just that sometimes, we need to change how we see things according to life’s changes.
Some churches may still be preventing women from becoming pastors because people running them still follow certain doctrines that they think are strict. Most of their teachings can’t be based on how we live our lives anyway as their teachings are hard to follow for our everyday lives. And as our lives can be diffcult most of the time, we want churches’ teachings to bend a little bit for us.
A well proportioned argument. I’d like to offer you an alternative viewpoint.
http://relijournal.com/christianity/the-role-of-women-in-the-church/
Good article. I do enjoy the cotroversy question.
This is very controversial. I personally would like to see the Bible updated some how. Meaning, we have too interpret the Bible for modern day life. I have mixed feelings regarding the King James Version of the Bible and it really does a dis-service to women who could and do the work of Jesus Christ and God sometimes better than men. The message and knowledge one get’s from their religous faith shouldn’t be based on gender. It’s the message and how to implement those scriptures in one’s daily life is what’s important. Men start all wars. Women are healers and nurture the brokened men that fall from grace and bad wars. I think a mind is mind no matter what their gender is and if a woman can translate the scriptures and pass that on like a man….then so be it. Great article and definate great piece for discussion. We should pursue this one Minister.
Well you asked for my opinion and it is as follows: This article takes a couple of passages from the scriptures and draws massively sweeping generalizations from them. I feel like the scriptures are being interpreted to fit with the preconceived notions of the author. I think this happens a lot, that it is a simple matter to read what you want to read into Biblical passages. I also think the use of anecdotal evidence (”I have seen women out of control”) is completely dubious. I’m sure, if you looked for it, you could also find men out of control who are pastoring. Also the claim that women are weaker than men spiritually is also dubious. We are individuals – there are spiritually weak, and spiritually strong, people from both genders. Provocative article, but in my opinion mis-guided.
Gonna be honest, I didn’t read the rest of the comments. I started too, but I need to get to class and I want to leave a comment. You sent me a message saying that you have been taking a lot of flack for the article you published. But I can’t honestly believe that you didn’t think you would.
This is a subject that I can’t believe people disagree on. It is sad to me that we seem to be progressing as a country (I am speaking of the United States) so much on moral issues and equal rights, for all races and creeds except when it comes to the treatment of women.
It used to be that blacks were discriminated against.
Now, it is that homosexuals are discriminated against and slurs used against them.
Next, I think it will be women. With so many people calling them ‘bitches’ or ‘whores’ this article is just a way of saying that women are inferior hiding behind the unabashed prejudice that is the Christian Bible.
We will not be able to progress morally as a nation or as a people until we stop defending our racist viewpoints with a 2,000 year old book written by asinine pranksters.
I’m not going to come back to this article, but feel free to message me if you want to discuss this further. That goes for everyone. I don’t write for Triond anymore, but I do love a good conversation.
You have to take into account the times in which your book was written. Of course it is sexist in nature and those of you who believe in the infallibility of the book will never be able to see beyond the words upon the page. But do you honestly believe God Created Man as a superior being to woman? I do not. And I believe that women are just as capable of being very good leaders in the church as men.
I believe the root of the problem of the issue we have in the church about women leadership, is men. We as men were created first and are to stand up and do what God has created us to do. Too many men aren’t standing up which has naturally caused a shift for women to take control. God created women to be a help mate or meet. Meaning women are just as important as men. When everything flows the way God intended, then the man and woman are working together as one. The man is the priest of the home, however if he doesn’t do his Godly duty, the responsibility automatically falls on the women. I personally do not agree with a woman being a pastor, however if a man doesn’t step up to the plate and lead then she has every right to step up. For the record I do believe a woman can teach and preach and so on. My issue isn’t with women, but with men. Just like I do not believe Eve is at fault for the fall from grace, but Adam is to blame. He planted the seed that we as men deal with today. We as men need to step up and be men!
I respect men as leaders and also know that many women would love men to lead more than not…problem is they aren’t as they should. Men are having children and not raising them, forcing a woman to take on roles that they should be doing. Some men are looking at their own agendas and not God’s. Yes, some women do the same, but when you have this happen and the men are leading you lose confidence in the traditional way of doing things. Children are being molested and women are being raped with a man’s eyes in the church…what are the men doing about this? More men pastors need to follow the greatest commandment of all and that is LOVE. Love for people and not their pockets, sexual desires, etc. Just like many men have failed us in leading households they are failing us in the church. To say a woman is weaker spiritually is nonsense…most women are the one’s seeking God to keep our marriages and households together while the men walk away. God created us in his image and we are capable of doing things a man is equipped to do now even more.Men are not answering to him and leading as he designed. Because of a woman’s natural desire to love we tend to put others first…I wish more men would do this. If more men would show us the love of God, maybe more women would be more open to just help and not lead as much. Women respect great leaders. God gives us the strength to do things when no one else is around to do it.
I believe the word ‘Man’ in the bible refers to mankind. Not simply the gender of male.
The bible was written by ‘man’ in the name of God. That being said, it is not above reproach by any means. Man (mankind) is not perfect and is subject to making errors in wording and in interpretting written words. To take a literal meaning from the words of the bible would be in error. (In my opinion). Everything is subject to interpretation differently by each person.
That being said, who are we to decide who should or should not hold the title of bishop? Shouldn’t we leave that up to the individuals who choose that noble profession? And, if they were in error in that choice due strictly to their gender, they will find that out on the day of their death. It will be a sad thing to believe that any God would prejudice himself/herself against an entire gender of humans.
Your article was well written. In the way of reasoning and logic though, I believe it to be flawed in many ways.
Good for you for getting so many views on this one.
I have no desire to lead a ministry, and if I did I doubt it would be for any reason other than just because I wanted to prove I could, so I hesitate to take serious offense. That being said, I think your view on women in general is skewed. There is a difference between the Bible and interpretations of it which have solidified over the years. I agree with your line of thinking that God’s reality is not a democracy, but I do not agree that women are necessarily designed as subservient to men in all matters. The Bible and its translations, after all, were all penned by men, and men are fallible. Also, regarding your first example- the use of “man” and “he-” you must remember that until very recently, the masculine pronoun was used in reference to both genders because of necessary ambiguity; ie, “mankind” refers both to men and to women.
I am not God, however, and neither are you, so rather than squabbling I’d like to agree to disagree, since in the end it is a matter of opinion.
This is a very good article. Having an aunt as a pastor of a church, I can say; I feel their are some that believe that she should be there and some that believe that she shouldn’t. If one follow the bible and one should in this aspect, it gives man dominance over woman. But if a woman is the pastor over the church isn’t she by default usurping dominance over the men in her congregation. But since their are so many churches popping up, now a day, wouldn’t it just make sense for a woman to start pastoring. Are we going to say in 2009 that the creator of the universe is he, himself a male chauvinist pig?(I can hear someone saying the bible say it; we didn’t) I digress. Forcertain this is a controversial issue and as you stated in your article its not controversial for God but for us. And usually. most biblical things are an enigma for man. Good read take care.