Theism Versus Atheism

The internet is well known for its memes, crazes and fads. From the dancing baby and hamster dance in the earliest days, to the flying spaghetti monster and the Rick roll, certain things have cropped up again and again in our inboxes, our forums and in recent times our stumble accounts.

One of the latest that I’ve noticed however is a surge in atheist based material. This in itself is not really a problem, I personally don’t really care about people’s religious views or ideas. No, what bothers me is the fact that what I’m seeing isn’t an interesting argument on the nature of religion or atheism, I’m not seeing people discussing ideas or issues or even just posting material for other people to read.

The whole thing has devolved into yet another flame war. The cause of my concern is the fact that we seem to be breeding yet another hate culture. The common argument usually goes something like this:

Read more in Religion

« Popular Religions

What is Religion 1 »

Atheists: Belief in God is x. (Where x can be anything from illogical to stupid)

Theists: You’re going to y. (Where y is your chosen faiths punishment for the faithless)

Atheists: You’re a(n) z. (Where z is generic insult)

Theists: No, you’re a z!

Okay, I’m generalizing a fair bit here, but the principle is there. One of them will make a post on a forum, a line in an IRC chat room or a comment on something, somewhere. This sparks the other into action and before you know it they’re all two steps shy of flinging feces at each other. And God (or not) help ANYONE who tries to bring the argument into a more civil light.

So, the scene is set, the lights are on and the elements of the article are in place. So let me answer your question of “Evis, is this going somewhere?” Yes- I’m going to look at the arguments commonly presented by atheists and theists and give reasons why I feel many of them are B.S, and why both of these groups of people can be just as stupid as each other. I’m also going to throw in a few points that I feel people miss. So, here we go:

Atheist argument: Religion is bad as religion causes wars.

The crusades, Jihad, the Gaza strip, the thirty years war… At a glance there seems to be a hell of a lot of evidence to support the idea that religion makes people pick up stick and beat each other to death. Or does it?

There are many ways people classify people. Race, Religion, Nationality, Wealth, Class, the list is endless, and each one is a valid way of categorizing people. But here’s another way: There are two kinds of people- Assholes and Not assholes.

Now, lets go back to say, the crusades 1095- 1272 (Roughly). Picture the scene; we have Western Europe under the power of the pope, united under the Roman Catholic Church. On the other side we have primarily the Muslims of the middle east, but it’s worth noting that the crusades also targeted pagans and even other sects of Christianity. In those days everyone (More or less) was religious, and religion, like nationality was a very big part of a people’s cultural identity. Hence why we can say the crusades where the Catholics versus the Muslims, it’s pretty much in the same league as say Germany versus Britain.

So what did nations do in those days when they needed more land (Or just wanted it)? The answer was to find someone smaller than you and beat them over the head with a large piece of iron. Said smaller person of course, had to be different, as the whole point of expansion is to acquire more resources for your tribe/clan/country. Humans are, by our nature, tribal animals. And so therefore we attack other tribes to ensure the survival of our own. So put yourself in the pope’s shoes. Other religions are appearing, in eastern Europe we have the rise of Hussites as well as a large Pagan population. In France we have the rise of Catharism. There are also many others such as the Orthodox churches, the Jewish population and so forth.

Now to religion these people are a different tribe. The pope’s power and resources come from the Roman Catholics, therefore anyone who is not a Roman Catholic is at best, not useful and at worse, a threat.

In short, the Crusades where launched to spread Roman Catholicism, not for the sake of spreading the religion though, but for the sake of the power the religion brought. And throughout history, nations have done the same. The British Empire, the French empire, The third Reich, The American empire (Pacific islands). So, if you’re going to run off the handle and claim that religion is bad because it causes wars, please also become an anarchist and renounce citizenship of your country as I can almost guarantee at some point in history it has started wars for exactly the same reasons as religion.

Theist argument: Religion turns bad people into good people.

Remember what I said above about there being two kinds of people? Well I’m going to expand on that a little. People tend to have a “nature” a natural mindset, their default. Some people for example are naturally happy and upbeat, others are natural socialites, some are always more inclined to think, and others are more inclined to do. There’s their environment as well that determines this, but the nature versus nurture argument is something else that I may discuss in the future.

In short, some people are naturally good, others are naturally pricks. Point in case is that an atheist who is a prick is still a prick. A theist who is a prick is still a prick. The thing I’m trying to say is that being a theist does NOT make you a good person.

All religions have two sides to them. The peace loving “treat everyone well” hippie pot smoking side, and the “treat everyone well except those mother f-” hypocritical violent side.

Good people who are attracted to religion will follow the former, in Christianity for example, they will give to the poor, help their community, keep the Ten Commandments and so on and so forth.

Assholes that are attracted to Christianity will use it as a justification to try and set fire to homosexuals, try and treat women as second class citizens and force people of other religions out of their area.

Don’t even get me started on assholes and good people in the nation of Islam. Suffice to say most Muslim’s I’ve met where thoroughly decent people who got so much crap they didn’t deserve thanks to a few stupid pricks in their faith.

See what I’m getting at here? Again, people will use religion as a justification for actions they would more than likely do anyway, rather that religion making them do these things. The exception to this idea of course are the morons who simply do whatever they are told. But can we really blame them? With sycophants it’s basically a case of whoever gets to them first. There are probably just as high a percentage of these “sheep” present in atheist groups as there are theist groups.

Point of interest: Few theists subscribe to all the tenets of their faith.

I know quite a few Catholics. Many of them use birth control. I know one who refuses to go to church believing the Catholic Church is corrupt. Not because they are softening up on a lot of hard-line policies, but because of the frequent allegations of pedophilia and the amount of money running through the organization that should be being used to help people.

The purpose of this little statement is to illustrate that you CANNOT tell what a person actually believes simply because they are of one faith or another. Don’t assume that because someone is Muslim for example that they are going to try and topple your government and implement Sharia Law.

Point of Interest: Science. The New Religion?

This is a common topic among the atheist/theist bitching sessions, so I’m going to present my views on it.

To many Atheists, science represents the core of their “belief” (Many atheists resent the term belief being applied, but I don’t see why, personally). The idea that something must be proven and measured for it to exist. Problem is that in scientific method, any theory has to be acknowledged as possible until is it disproved, yet in order for something to exist it needs to be measured. This presents us with a fundamental dichotomy on using scientific method to highlight the possibility/impossibility of God. This argument is used on both sides and serves little purpose other than to give me a headache.

But anyway, I digress. A lot of Atheists dislike the idea that people follow religion blindly and without question. The fact that many theists don’t do this seems to escape them. The thing is, atheists do almost exactly the same thing with science.
Let me illustrate this for you.

I think everyone’s heard of this hoax, but it illustrates a point. If something sounds scientific, people rarely question it.

Another point is advanced physics. The Higgs, Brane theory, superstrings, all these things have about as much actual evidence to support them as the existence of God. They are theories to explain what we do not understand. As is God. The only difference in public opinion seems to be that one is more valid as it is presented by someone in a white coat rather than someone in a white dress. Well, when the LHC is turned on, this argument may well be null and void (along with everything else on earth), but that again is another argument for another article.

In Closing

Thanks for reading if you made it this far. I have barely even scratched the surface of this topic, let along presented all of my theories, ideas and opinions. However I felt it was already long enough and any more words would just send people to sleep. If you would like to read more, please comment on this piece as if there is an interest I will continue to write, as well as express my opinions on other topics.

Ultimately, what I want is for atheists and theists to realize that they are both wrong, yet both right and to start treating each other with a modicum more respect. Also, that people should be judged as people, on their own individual merits, not as a part of a belief structure, or nation, or race or anything else like that. These things are part of who a person is, but are by no means the only measure of that person.

Oh, and incidentally I’ve intentionally not mentioned by own personal beliefs. I’ll give you all a clue, I’m not Agnostic.